Editor's Note:
Last week Mud Run Guide posted this article – Big Trouble in (Little China) Agoge 003 – written by Agoge 002 finisher Chris Cow. Since then have had a lot of comments about what happened on the call over the weekend. Cow initially wrote the article after he was troubled reading experiences at Agoge China 003 that didn't resemble the same event that he wrote two glowing articles about – Inside the Spartan Agoge Class 002 – and – On Leadership and Endurance. Something didn't add up in his mind. After publishing the article last week Joe De Sena announced a call would take place for former participants to ask Joe directly about what happened in China and the future of AGOGE. Cow joined the call and put together this update for those following the story.
Update: On Sunday, Joe hosted a conference call (changed from the proposed Facebook Live meeting) to discuss the situation from the China Agoge and what that event will look like going forward. This consisted of mostly a monologue with some questions emailed in, as partipants weren’t able to un-mute their lines easily (to be fair, this was their first time attempting such a call using this technology). Afterwards, Spartan HQ emailed us a summary. A few excerpts of that are given below.
Why Did We Select Only a Few Graduates?
Finishing is a great achievement, but not the same as graduating. Not everyone got a medal simply because by observing the group, not everyone had demonstrated they had reached the stage of life learning we all signed up for. This isn't a negative comment – it’s a learning comment.
We are all at different stages of our journey, none less important than the other!
We selected the graduates from the finishers using the criteria and method of thinking I've discussed tonight. To clarify, the women who were given the opportunity to select other graduates had to clearly explain their choices to the Krypteia first, and their reasons why. The women who graduated did so because they consistently showed the characteristics we look for in graduates.
Where are we Agoge China? I think the ball is in your court from here.
1) Continue Your Journey On Us – If you are one of the folks that were standing in line at the finish and think you want to come back to the Agoge and continue your journey and graduate, please send me an email. Your entry is on all of us, and I look forward to seeing you at one of our Agoge’s. I am also happy to meet you in Kyoto Japan.
If you weren't at Agoge China and feel like you still disagree with our decision, join us at the next Agoge. I promise you, you'll walk away a better stronger person.
2) Didn't deserve A Medal in China – Some of you have said you don’t believe you earned one- If you feel that you did not earn one for whatever reason and you were standing on that final finish line and received a medal in error—email me as well and we will get you sorted on us for the next Agoge.
3) Still want a Medal? If after hearing this if you still believe you did everything you should have in China and were standing on the finish line, you mastered your emotions after China, you didn’t lose your cool, go crazy with emails or social media like so many did and simply want a medal, email me—we will send you one. We will use the honor system here, as those at the finish line passed all the physical tests and most of the mental tests. Those that did not pass should admit it to themselves, and we will work through it at a future Agoge together.
What was the benefit to the Agoge community of not giving everyone a medal?
A spin-off benefit from staying true to Spartan values is that everyone at that finish line, whether they got a medal or not, was given a valuable life lesson. As I said, life isn't always fair. If you're familiar with Sir Ernest Shackleton's story – they set out for recognition and reward, only to be faced with one of the most gruelling survival situations of all time. Shackleton didn't get a medal. Neither did everyone at Agoge China. I hope that after this call the Agoge community better recognizes that lesson we're trying to teach.
What will Agoge look like in the future?
Expect us to keep raising the bar. Not everyone is going to get medals. What you can count on is even greater tests of character and resilience, in some of the most epic and tough locations in the US and around the world. The future of Agoge is to continue creating “1 in a million” humans, and we're only just getting started. I hope that you'll be part of it, no matter where you are on your own life journey. Agoge is going to teach you even when you don’t know it is doing so..
I have my own opinions on this (of course), and remain somewhat unsatisfied with many of these answers for a variety of reasons. In essence, Joe has placed the burden of determining whether or not they “graduated” firmly on the shoulders of the athletes involved in China, and going forward, simply finishing the grueling 60h Agoge event does not mean “graduating” or getting a wedge for the delta.
Disclaimer: The viewpoints expressed by the authors do not necessarily reflect the opinions, viewpoints and official policies of Mud Run Guide LLC, or their staff. The comments posted on this Website are solely the opinions of the posters.
Completely unsatisfactory. They told everyone they would get a wedge if they finished, this is pretty easily false advertising. This is part of the ‘learning trifecta’, not the race or endurance ones. By this logic, they should also choose who gets a wedge for finishing ‘Spartan X’ and the SGX certification.
Finally, these events are based on what YOU can do and accomplish. Nobody signed up for a judged competition. They have really missed the mark on this. If this is the event they want to put on, fine, but they need to be clear about what participants are getting themselves into.
I, for one, will be putting my Delta in a shoebox and finding other endurance events to be a part of if they don’t get this under control. I’m very disappointed in the hubris of the Spartan leadership. I really thought they would listen better.
I was both on the call and at the finish line in China without receiving a wedge. I also finished agoge 002 in Vermont. While i feel that everyone at the finish line deserved a wedge i was not angry, disappointed, or felt cheated by what happened. While i feel that the coins are a better choice for gauging “graduation”, i feel that i learned more from the withholding of the wedge than i ever would have from an arbitrary wedge. There are def lessons to be learned on both parts participants and Krypteia. I believe that the Agoge is a transformational event that transcends the boundaries of the event itself. I know i have grown because of it. I am planning on winter, summer, and UK next year. If i could find a way to Japan i would be there. I respect everyone’s personal decisions but i hope to see many of you there with me. Just my two cents.
The response from Joe, “…I hope that after this call the Agoge community better recognizes that lesson we’re trying to teach…” makes me wonder, is the lesson that the modern day Spartan is going rapidly down the path of decline of the Ancient Spartans?
According to http://www.ancient.eu/sparta/
Like all Greek societies Sparta was dominated by male citizens and the most powerful of those came from a select group of families (Can this be compared to the Elite Athletes Spartan has on their payroll?) This lack of social mobility would come back to haunt Sparta in later centuries, so much so, that non-Spartiate soldiers had to be enlisted and their loyalty and interest in Sparta’s ambitions was questionable. Values of the Spartan Citizen: Unquestioning Obedience, Courage, Indifference to Pain, Cold or Heat , Contempt for other Cultures….”
It seems the current day Spartans are following the path of the Ancient Spartans and the decisions being made will come back to “haunt ” them. Right now the only value I am feeling is contempt 🙁
Joe also stated, “….A spin-off benefit from staying true to Spartan values is that everyone at that finish line, whether they got a medal or not, was given a valuable life lesson…”
According to the Spartan Site: https://www.spartan.com/en/race/detail/1343/overview
“…The Spartan Agoge is the culmination of every physical and mental strength as well as everything a person has learned in life. Finishers become innovative thinkers, prudent risk-takers, and expert decision-makers. They will embody the Spartan Code, a code of honor and respect that breeds trust and inspires action….”
I cannot speak for anyone else, but I would like to know what EXACTLY what the present day Spartan Values are and the Lessons they are trying to teach. It does not seem that Joe and Spartan are living up to their own value of breeding trust…..In so many various areas Spartan has NOT done what it takes to “breed trust” in the organization.
I am so very disappointed in the path Spartan Inc. is currently on…..
Pride has turned into arrogance for Joe
People are not paying to be taught lessons. People are paying to race. If they learn a lesson along the way because of experiences in that race, great, but your job is to provide the race, the obstacles, and the medal when finished. Nothing more.
That’s why there are the regular races. Sprint, super, beast, even ultra beast. Those are races with a prize at the end. The endurance events HH and HH12HR are designed to be different than that. The Agoge the pinnacle teaching event is designed to be more than that. Offering teaching in the most extreme circumstances. This honestly is what i love about spartan. They offer different levels for all athletes and stages of development.
I’m just an average guy, I don’t pretend to be elite, but I have run 17 spartan races so far this year. I consider myself part of the bread and butter of the franchise. Average folks getting out there and pushing to be better. I considered doing one of these events as I have the means, but to be honest is it really worth it? Where is the kyrptic or whatever out there at twilight helping the sweepers get folks through a course? Keep your wedge, there are better honors.
False advertising on Spartan’s behalf. Spartan is growing too quickly and the quality of the alot events has diminshed. They go from putting on a killer World Championship to this debacle. My heart goes out to all of those who were cheated. Just email Joe and get the wedge that you rightfully deserve if you completed the 60 hrs.
but i thought that it said whoever completed it got an award??? im sure they would change that at the end but who knows. All i know is that there should be age group awards in all the events. this keeps people competitive and we have fun training up to try and get a place position